tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post7796607090194602353..comments2023-08-10T00:39:28.352-04:00Comments on Jakob's Eve Checklist: SP changes: Shaking up the Gerontocracy of EveAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06561998031457981240noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-10727511127252387802015-10-31T17:46:52.941-04:002015-10-31T17:46:52.941-04:00Hey Turamarth, sorry I took so long to reply. I w...Hey Turamarth, sorry I took so long to reply. I was just going to say "no worries" about your apology, but you deserve more. That's a classy thing to do and kudos to you. A lot of time we get wrapped up in these internet discussions and it's easy to lose track of your tone, or even that's there's a real person on the other end of the conversation. So thank you, and much respect.<br /><br />So in that spirit I'll say that I've learned a lot my listening to people talk about this topic in blogs and podcasts. I'll be curious to see how CCP moves this along balancing all of these thoughts and concerns.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561998031457981240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-66387868789544390802015-10-23T18:50:50.611-04:002015-10-23T18:50:50.611-04:00The difference between older and newer players is ...The difference between older and newer players is EXPERIENCE.<br />One can gain experience ONLY by time and effort... period.<br /><br />The difference between richer and poorer players is MONEY.<br />Money, or ISK is not really an issue. And IMHO and experience there are more players who are willing to throw money at problems than those who are willing to invest the time and effort required to gain real experience.<br /><br />I say this because anyone who can afford a computer, 'Net connection and the time to play EVE for fun or to at least grind for PLEX obviously isn't homeless, panhandling or even really worried about where their next meal is coming from OK? And if they are in one of those categories why are they wasting their time playing a game instead of improving their situation??<br /><br />So while some may not be able to afford to buy PLEX, EVE players aren't "poor" they just might not have as much extra cash or ISK as some.<br /><br />Investment in the game... That's the difference.Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-9004983285460314782015-10-23T18:37:39.886-04:002015-10-23T18:37:39.886-04:00Jacob et al, I sincerely apologize for the "Y...Jacob et al, I sincerely apologize for the <i>"You don't get it..."</i> it was said conversationally but came across more aggressively than I had hoped (especially considering I wasn't going for aggressive at all)... my bad.<br /><br />But... you sorta made my argument though, a little bit, <i>"...we see lots of Purple Ravens (or Orthrus for PVP) out there."</i> 'as things are now'... You say this won't make it better or worse and I disagree in the strongest terms... This will ONLY get worse not better... and as noobs will not know HOW to properly use the stuff 'unlocked' by the purchased SP, it most it will hurt them the most. These aren't swords or magic bows... are they?<br /><br />I do not want to control other players... I want the game to do that. I want the game to ease them into new stuff at a rate that allows them to LEARN about the new stuff... You must crawl before you walk, and walk before you run... Buying SP only gives noobs the ability to stand up and run, not the knowledge of HOW to do so safely.<br /><br /><i>"Do you think that all new players accrue experience in the game at the same rate..."</i> Yes. One hour of experience for every hour playing the game... same as me. Now what they DO in those hours is up to them, same as it is for everyone.<br /><br /><i>"...and that rate is the same as the rate of accruing SP?"</i> Yup... one hour per hour same as every other toon. What they skill up FOR in those hours is up to them, same as it is for everyone.<br /><br />Dood if it weren't for the fact that there would be a black market for toons without the CharBazzar I'd be actively speaking out against it... but we all know there would be and this is one of those <i>"OK, we'll sell you the liquor & cigarettes instead of leaving you with no other option than moonshine and lefthanded smokes."</i> =]<br /><br /><i>"Eve is Not a Nanny State"</i>. Mmmm... actually, it is a bit for our noobs, as it should be. Noob systems have special rules for PVP and such. CCP does try (I really feel they could do better though) in getting the word across to noobs that EVE ain't yer daddy's Themepark MMO... but like all Nanny's one day, and in EVE that's as early as the noob wants, often too early IMHO, the toddler leaves the cradle and warps off into the Black... to whatever awaits... ready or not.<br /><br />IRL we don't kick our kids out the door when they are still babies or toddlers... so may I ask why do YOU want to dump our virtual toddlers out into the Black at birth?? EVE could (and should and I believe CCP is trying to) do a far better job of preparing our nubbins for the dangers of New Eden... but letting them buy the ability to just pick up bigger guns and sit in faster cars without the knowledge of how to USE them aint the way to do that... now is it?Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-90717287715844458312015-10-23T13:43:46.100-04:002015-10-23T13:43:46.100-04:00Anon: If the gap between older and news players wa...Anon: If the gap between older and news players was acceptable, please explain why the same gap between richer and poorer players is unacceptable. Also, explain why the diminishing returns proposal doesn't seriously dampen your argument. Consider also the concept of the maximum number of skill points that actually matter in a hull of a given (particularly small) size.<br /><br />It seems like you're exploring a very very corner case which would have great expense, but not actually change the demographic or power structure of the game today.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561998031457981240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-29544975524301288452015-10-23T12:28:40.644-04:002015-10-23T12:28:40.644-04:00Jakob, your arguments don't hold water. If yo...Jakob, your arguments don't hold water. If you a new player can "catch up" on skill points, why would they stop at pulling up even? They will pass, if they can afford it. If skill points matter, buying skill points is absolutely pay to win, and separating skill points from characters *dramatically* changes the landscape. So now instead of having a gap between old players and new players, you create a different gap between poor players and rich players. The gap between rich and poor is worse for the game.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-83544002995874187642015-10-23T12:04:28.559-04:002015-10-23T12:04:28.559-04:00Yeah, you're right about the power of older pl...Yeah, you're right about the power of older players not coming from the SP. Maybe I got too excited about the title-line push. :)<br /><br />I don't see how adding an ability to get SP immediate leads to a desire to get content/PVP immediately. That's an already previously existing desire that we keep hearing come up, whether it is for an official Dojo or just by joining something like RvB (which I'm sad to hear sounds like it is decline without Mangala). If someone says they want (closer to) instant PvP I'd just tell them to join us in Factional Warfare! :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561998031457981240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-53047899107970350852015-10-23T11:58:38.154-04:002015-10-23T11:58:38.154-04:00I believe that confusing the gaining of SP with th...I believe that confusing the gaining of SP with the gaining of experience in how to play the game is a false starter position. You're right that players have to learn not to fly what they can't afford to lose, and that we see lots of Purple Ravens (or Orthrus for PVP) out there. That's not going to change one way or the other if we let players buy SP.<br /><br />Why do you feel that you want to control whether a player can choose to increase their SP, and force them to buy a character or do it the slow way? Do you think that all new players accrue experience in the game at the same rate, and that rate is the same as the rate of accruing SP?<br /><br />Why not instead let them make that choice, but in a more granular way that having to buy a whole new character? Why deny players the option? Again, Eve is Not a Nanny State.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06561998031457981240noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-89104936964597703232015-10-23T05:10:10.533-04:002015-10-23T05:10:10.533-04:00I wouldn't go as far as Tur, stating “you don&...I wouldn't go as far as Tur, stating “you don't get it” as you are saying: “Consider a mechanism where I inject one TSP of 500K SP and thus double my rate of learning until they are gone. Consider if stacking was allowed so if I really want I can inject 9 TSPs and learn at 10x rate for a while.” I would argue that 10 times is too fast but 5 times? You could catch up with your 2 year mate in about 4-6 month. If you are an invested player you get the personal experience needed to make such a fast progress.<br /><br />Important is that it is not instant. We have to avoid new players that jump right into a Battleship fitted with 2 small 2 medium and 2 large guns, because in many Sci-Fi Movie you see a ship has guns against different types of targets. They need some time to learn that.<br /><br />And to the point of “vets loosing their power” … no? I am on the way beyond 180m skills and all I can say is “I can fly almost any ship with any weapon system and any tank”. I don't have the routine to fly every ship and combination. I don't know how experienced my opponent is with his ship. And once I sit in mine and he attacks only those few skills concerning this ship count. But it needs practice beyond having the skills to know that. And I really doubt that power is linked much to SP on a character in game as social as eve is. What brings those vets power is that they know people and mechanics, both things that a half year old player can achieve if he is invested in the game (and seeking it).<br /><br />Finally, I agree with you that gaining SP is NOT pay to win. It is a way to give new players an option to catch up with older players, like you said, somewhere to the 50 – 80m SP. But it shortens the time for experience, so a limit to that speed of progression would help to keep the culture of patience needed. If the new player feels entitled to get instant access to the next ship level or module, why shouldn't be entitled to get instant PvP action? There is no “give me player interaction” button. You have to leave the station and seek for it.Chaninanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5430175273066918725.post-3524471364362061512015-10-22T22:22:17.085-04:002015-10-22T22:22:17.085-04:00You don't get it...I'm not worried with no...You don't get it...I'm not worried with noob 'catching up' with vets... I'm primarily concerned with what new players will do when they realize they've been tricked…<br /><br />New players ALWAYS want bigger, faster, etc., etc., ships because they don’t know better… IE they have not played long enough to have LEARNED that ‘bigger is not always better’ in EVE.<br /><br />The old skill queue gave you so much to look forward to. Each skill line you cross brought Aura’s sultry “Skill training complete.” And that was like audible sex… with presents! And we had TIME… time to learn how to fly, how to fight, how each class of ship was important and had its role to play.<br /><br />When I was a noob I had no idea how try and to manage engagements based on any understanding of my ships abilities + modules and how they affected my ship etc., etc., much less any understanding of my opponents abilities based on his ship & possible fit. That took YEARS to learn. I was far better off losing cheaper ships and mods as I skilled up my toon AND I learned RL skills than being tricked into feeling like I could BUY skill in EVE… ‘cause you CAN’T… ever.<br /><br />That’s right… I said tricked. Buying SP ‘looks’ like P2W to some… but we know it’s really not… and guess what else it's not? P2Catch-up... cause you won't. You CANNOT pay to catch-up to months or years of human experience in anything... and the problem is the noobs don’t know that.<br /><br />(1) Buying SP looks like an easy way to avoid the Learning Cliff… but it’s not.<br /><br />The Learning Cliff is not about SP… it’s always been about Player Skill in the game. By buying SP noobs will think (IE be tricked) that they can get around the need for patience and the investment in time and effort that, SP notwithstanding , will still be required to actually be successful in EVE.<br /><br />(2) Buying SP runs the risk of attracting gamers who want Pay to Win, those who want Instant Gratification… to their ultimate disappointment.<br /><br />Buying SP in EVE does not and cannot make anyone ‘competitive’ or even ‘competent’ with the ships, fits and tactics in EVE’s very not-yo-daddys-WASD-Themepark gameplay. Imagine a real noob, a few days or even a few weeks or so old with 200m SP and ask yourself how that would really work out for him… How much is he going to KNOW about fitting? About transversal? about range control? how much experience is he going to have?? Really think about it...<br /><br />Jacob I respect you man but you have to know playing EVE well, PVPing in EVE competitively is (IMHO at best) 2/5th Skill Points and 3/5th Player Experience... and for most much more like 1/5 SP and 4/5th PE... that's how it was for me when I was a noob.<br /><br />I am not AT ALL against noobs catching up with vets... but buying SP will not do that... It will however allow them to buy, poorly fit, and lose far more expensive ships than they can AFFORD... and that breaks EVE's Golden Rule now doesn't it?Turamarth Elrandirhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129383421613323047noreply@blogger.com