March 18, 2015

Is Null becoming more attractive?

From the perspective a low-sec resident I'm hearing mixed signals.  Is Null becoming the kind of place that might be fun to actually try, or is the same old same old?

I won't say it's synchronized with the announcement with FozzieSov, but it seems like I've seen an uptick of "I'm going to try out 0.0" eve-mails and chat-comments lately.  This is mostly from the industrial corp I have an alt in.  Are people anticipating the new Sov, or have conditions improved in general from the last few releases to make it worth taking a stab at?  I would be curious if null-sov corps and alliances were starting to quietly recruit industrial types.

We have NC/BL moving on Fountain - is this the last gasp of the old generation of sov warfare coming into position?  Blow up all your capitals because soon they won't be worth anything for sov contests?  Okay, that's not fair given that you'll still want to hp-grind POSes and such and presumably CCP will be rebalancing capitals before FozzieSov lands... right?

As of this morning we have the news of BRAVE's evac from GE, which I heard from a coworker as I walked in this morning, and of course is all over Reddit and the usual news websites.  This has been interesting to hear about for the classics of null warfare: the formups that then turn into stand-downs because intel shows that the other guys will be bringing a force that can't be even reasonably assaulted.  (And thanks to the way Logistics works in practice, in which a suicidal attack might not even get any kills, but that's another story.)  Apparently PL decided that they'd get more "gudfights" by grinding down the HERO home station - um, yeah.  So now my coworker gets to learn what nullsec evacs are like (including insane failed asset moves).

Here in FW lowsec we certainly could face eviction - we saw a bit of that when the Caldari had to move their assets out of Heyd as we prepared to take it, though it sounds like there wasn't really much there.  It is conceivable that we could take Hasmijala (Caldari major home) or lose Fliet (Aideron Robotics home).  It is even conceivable that someone could bring a massive force that was nearly untouchable - but nowhere near like what we're seeing in PL vs Brave.  That's because of the FW sov mechanics - which are clearly the inspiration for FozzieSov.  But would the new mechanics really would have made the PL/HERO war any more balanced?

There are a lot of players watching how this all develops, and not only those currently in null.  I'm certainly crossing my fingers, and I'll keep my eyes on the Fanfest news...


  1. The jump changes have more to do with the renewed interest as opposed to the proposed sov changes, I think. That's when I started hearing renewed interest from people in going back to null. Not as sov warriors, but as renters.

    Sure, the jump changes make things a lot more painful getting to and from null, but they also make it, at least in theory, more of a pain for the casual hot-dropping on a single tengu, for example.

    1. Oh, one thing I missed was that, based on statements made elsewhere, I'd not bet on capital rebalancing coming before sov 2.0. Additionally, when Fozzie mentioned capitals, he seems to have been specifically mentioning only carriers, not dreads. And while he did say something long the lines of no damaging effects, does that mean direct damage from the capital itself, or does it include drones and fighters as well?

      In my opinion, anyone in null who didn't start recruiting industrialists after the jump change has completely missed the boat.

    2. The thing is, most null alliances call themselves as pvp-ers.. they don't want industrialists (except for the 80% noncombat alts they already have).. But they could certainly use renters that supply the local market for them...

    3. Not saying that's not the case, Raz, in terms of what null alliances do. I'm just saying they are downright stupid for not fully embracing an industrial arm of their own.

    4. @Heretic Caldari
      I think it's supercarriers, in particular, which Fozzie was talking about. TBH, carriers are in a pretty good place as superheavy logistics when in triage the same way that dreads are good as insane large-target dps in siege. (Sure, it sucks when my side can't do anything when PL drops nine triage archons with their TFI fleet, but that has more to do with their supercap escalation threat.) Triage and siege are also sort of anti-blob due to the fact that they prevent remote assistance, unlike supercaps.

      As for industrial arm, the reason industry is devalued is that logistics trumps industry (and will for at least as long as JFs to empire are easy), industrial alts are relatively quick to train (which means it's easy for the pvpers who're interested to do it), and the production end of industry is doable by somewhere between 1% and 10% of the total population by characters running full tilt. So, you might as well import compressed ore to build on your couple of industry alts unless you're some sort of autarky hobbyist. (and this from someone who actually thinks building locally and supplying a market is *fun*...)

    5. I understand the pitfalls facing industry in null. It's also a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Too few miners means not enough ore and mins produced locally which means buying in highsec, etc. I still think it's a mistake to not encourage and build a self-contained industry arm independent of jump fatigue, Jita interdictions, JF losses, etc.

      I'm with Kirith on carriers, actually. I think they are OP when their ship transport capacity is included. To me, when I hear 'carrier' it conjures up images of the big WW2 Pacific naval battles. In fact, Kirith has some pretty good ideas on caps on his blog. Interesting, to say the least.

      Part of the problem I have with statements delivered in the way Fozzie made those comments is the inaccuracy; he seems to be referring to carriers and supercarriers in that talk, but if he meant those and not dreads and rorqs, why didn't he say that? It just makes me worry that items are being overlooked.

      And as we all know, CCP has never done that before... :)

      Still, it's early days, and the details will change a lot. I do think CCP is on the right track.

      The question is, will the players start thinking outside the box and adapting, or will they carry on in the same old way?

  2. Hmm let's see I can ship in this T2 ship/module for 600 isk/m3 or I can try to put up overpriced buy orders for non-existant moon materials and after several months build something for more as the local market price.

    And redistribute ice so that every region has all ice types please...

    1. Not this.

      Sounds like you want cookie-cutter space, where the only thing that changes is the background colour. I (and, I hope, the Devs) want more localisation. Just as actions should have consequences in New Eden, so should location.

      Minnie space should be full of Minnie sticks and projectile-firing Minnie ships, especially at the "center". Other areas similarly playing to their stereotype, with more of a mix in the hinterlands. To step outside of the "location meta" should be a sign that someone has gone to some trouble and/or expense to do so.

      Races, regions, null sec blocs -- they shouldn't specialise just because the lore says so, but also because the readily available local resources (and lack of key materials for other metas) mean such specialisation makes practical and economic sense.

      Unfortunately, we may have missed the boat on that. Such geographical diversity can only be maintained if the transportation of goods and materials between areas has a meaningful cost -- and can you imagine the howls of protest if CONCORD introduced jump gate fees and regional governments imposed warp fuel taxes and import duties? :-)

      "This is Rens Ship Fitting. This is a local shop, for local people. What are these 'laazoors' you're asking for?"

    2. What I want is the ability to live in a region without having to import anything from Jita and right now this is not possible.

    3. You can, almost entirely -- by using items "appropriate" to the area rather than foreign imports. If you want to go outside the "local meta" you pay -- in either money, time, or inconvenience.

      All things available equally everywhere? Just cram everyone into Jita and have done with it...

  3. And of course after seeing the keynote, we'll see how much this continues to shift...